Comments on: Gold & The World of Warcraft Economy http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/ World of Warcraft Gold, Tips, Tricks, and Discussion Thu, 30 Dec 2010 10:05:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Moskito http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-16005 Moskito Sun, 09 Aug 2009 03:26:02 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-16005 Bravo! I think the main reason I get frustrated with people who whine about the WoW economy, is that it is NOT an economy...it is a simulated economy, and people don't get the difference. In a real world economy, people have needs. In WoW, you really do not have needs (no, fish feasts do not equal formula and repairs are not the same as diapers...). Everything in WoW is a want. You can do without anything in the game (yes, even a flying mount) for as long as you are willing to do so. Once you do decide you want to get any item in the game, you can get it in a number of different ways by plucking that money we have been told about off those WoW trees. Some people will pluck it quickly, others more slowly. There is nothing in the game out of your reach. The fact remains that I can get a flying mount or enough gear to do anything in the game a bit at a time if I put my mind to it. In the real world, I am a teacher. As much as I may want a Porsche 911...it ain't happening. I can't go mine copper ore until I get the gold to do it. Why? Because I and my family have needs. I think those who truly "dominate" in WoW get that. So, don't whine about the AH and don't moan about how the economy on any one server is worse than another...just go get the gold! (I just realized I could have scanned the AH on both my horde and my Ally servers in the time it took me to respond to this...Aargh!) Bravo! I think the main reason I get frustrated with people who whine about the WoW economy, is that it is NOT an economy…it is a simulated economy, and people don’t get the difference. In a real world economy, people have needs. In WoW, you really do not have needs (no, fish feasts do not equal formula and repairs are not the same as diapers…). Everything in WoW is a want. You can do without anything in the game (yes, even a flying mount) for as long as you are willing to do so. Once you do decide you want to get any item in the game, you can get it in a number of different ways by plucking that money we have been told about off those WoW trees. Some people will pluck it quickly, others more slowly. There is nothing in the game out of your reach.
The fact remains that I can get a flying mount or enough gear to do anything in the game a bit at a time if I put my mind to it. In the real world, I am a teacher. As much as I may want a Porsche 911…it ain’t happening. I can’t go mine copper ore until I get the gold to do it. Why? Because I and my family have needs.
I think those who truly “dominate” in WoW get that. So, don’t whine about the AH and don’t moan about how the economy on any one server is worse than another…just go get the gold! (I just realized I could have scanned the AH on both my horde and my Ally servers in the time it took me to respond to this…Aargh!)

]]> By: Lawbringer http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15759 Lawbringer Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:07:25 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15759 You are exactly right about how money is created in the real world. The biggest reason this is different than in WoW is that since in Real Life people have to start out pretty much relying on being IN debt instead of the one CREATING the debt to others, it is a LOT harder to consolidate wealth. In WoW, all you have to do is work hard and be smart with your spending. While you need to do the same thing in RL, the process is sooooo much more efficient in WoW because you can consolidate a small amount of gold with just effort. And since you don't have rent to pay or food expense (and all the other things we have to pay for with debt fiat money in RL) you can end up with a big enough stake to enter the world of the merchant - and never have to rely on the creation of debt to gain wealth. It really is a better system where anyone can trickle off gold into a pile somewhere and not have it just represent a big pile of debt that is losing value if it is not loaned out creating another debt to someone else somewhere. Money in RL only gains value when it is used in 'usery,' gold in WoW has no way of doing so. As to the point of the amount of gold remaining static, this is only because people spend it. If they were not using it at vendors in huge amounts there would be more of it, but it still would not effect prices much. The trend to save would pull more gold into the economy, but since it was being saved and not spent it would have no effect on the price structure since it would not create more supply or more demand, merely more savings. Only debt money flowing into an economy creates inflation, and only does so through fractional reserve lending. Here's why - Fractional reserve lending requires a bank to hold, say, 10% of it's 'lended' money in reserve. That means that for every 10 dollars you loan out (creating 10 dollars in debt to the bank) the bank only has to hold 1 dollar in the safe. They just loaned out 9 dollars they don't have. They just invented debt out of thin air. Then, the person uses this made up debt money and it gets 'deposited' (if you can call it that - I'm still unsure how all of this is even legal since if you or I did the same thing with anything else it would be called fraud) in another bank. The second bank can then loan out 9 more fake debt dollars to other folks based on the one already fake dollar they got and on it goes sometimes through 10 levels before you just run out of bank. So, when the Federal Reserve (which is neither Federal, nor Reserve) lets the US Government borrow 100 million dollars it balloons in probably less than a month into more than 1 billion dollars in debt in the economy. Since every single dime of it is based on a loan, not a single one of those dollars has any fiat value left EXCEPT to the banks themselves, and the banks are the only ones sucking any real value out of the GDP the currency is supposed to represent. Then, since there were only a small fraction of the actual dollar bills or coins or 20's printed based on the 100 million, the actual end result is that the supply of fiat coin and notes circulating as a percentage of the fractional reserves has shrunk exponentially. So the number of 20 dollar bills you can get your hands on goes down in relationship to the amount of money the banks can demand in payment. But since there are hundreds of millions of more electronic bills floating around out there in fractional wisp money - the value of each of the 'real' dollars just decreased. That is how inflation happens. You can see in WoW how this is completely impossible. Gold really has a set buying power since vendor prices are static, and so are the quest reward amounts. Everyone in WoW could spend all their time gathering gold and the prices at the AH would remain fairly static because the supply and demand chains are pretty static as well. You could do the same thing in real life if money was actually fiat and fractional reserve banking was done away with. I can only loan Aemaeth/Zmack gold that I have on hand. I can't loan him 10,000 gold if I only have 1,000. It's when banks make up fake gold that inflation happens, NOT when people gather and save the real thing. In the end - it is NOT an instantaneous process to consolidate wealth in WoW. It does take some time and effort. But since the gold actually represents real buying power at vendors and among players since there is no way to water down the currency with debt lending fractionals - the value of all goods and services will be based entirely on supply and demand no matter how much of the gold is floating around out there. In other words, the CONTROL valve that protects the money supply in WoW has nothing to do with price controls, regulation, gathering any amount of it, taxes, or anything like that. There is even lending going on - I hold debts from several people (not that Aemae will ever make enough to pay me back), but that doesn't hurt me either. The real control is the fact that NO ONE can leverage their way into a central bank because the vehicle does not exist. The control is that no one can ruin the gold supply by flooding it with 9 times more than they actually own. It shouldn't exist in RL either. Every US President that bucked the centralized banking system was assassinated. I apologize to a small degree for the uniquely American terminology used here, but it's the same in every country. Just apply dollar to your currency (Sterling, Yuan, whatever) and Federal Reserve to whatever central bank holds control of the currency there and you're in the same boat. This long answer should probably be a post in and of itself, except for the fact that people don't come to DYS to read rants about economic or money theory overall. But it's fun to talk about. So to sum up: you're being Dominated by centralized banks folks - we would all have to go PvP on them to get out from under it too. The point is that by seeing how GOOD a money system can work without fractional reserves, and the fact that it is being used to whack people between the eyes, you just might grow a set and vote for someone who will actually oppose the current economic banking system out there wherever you are - or run for office yourself and make yourself a royal pain in the backside. Be careful though, guys in power tend to want to stay there, and you just might put yourself in harms way for the reals if you buck too hard against the reigns. Be bold, but be shrewd. You are exactly right about how money is created in the real world. The biggest reason this is different than in WoW is that since in Real Life people have to start out pretty much relying on being IN debt instead of the one CREATING the debt to others, it is a LOT harder to consolidate wealth. In WoW, all you have to do is work hard and be smart with your spending. While you need to do the same thing in RL, the process is sooooo much more efficient in WoW because you can consolidate a small amount of gold with just effort. And since you don’t have rent to pay or food expense (and all the other things we have to pay for with debt fiat money in RL) you can end up with a big enough stake to enter the world of the merchant – and never have to rely on the creation of debt to gain wealth. It really is a better system where anyone can trickle off gold into a pile somewhere and not have it just represent a big pile of debt that is losing value if it is not loaned out creating another debt to someone else somewhere. Money in RL only gains value when it is used in ‘usery,’ gold in WoW has no way of doing so.

As to the point of the amount of gold remaining static, this is only because people spend it. If they were not using it at vendors in huge amounts there would be more of it, but it still would not effect prices much. The trend to save would pull more gold into the economy, but since it was being saved and not spent it would have no effect on the price structure since it would not create more supply or more demand, merely more savings. Only debt money flowing into an economy creates inflation, and only does so through fractional reserve lending.

Here’s why – Fractional reserve lending requires a bank to hold, say, 10% of it’s ‘lended’ money in reserve. That means that for every 10 dollars you loan out (creating 10 dollars in debt to the bank) the bank only has to hold 1 dollar in the safe. They just loaned out 9 dollars they don’t have. They just invented debt out of thin air. Then, the person uses this made up debt money and it gets ‘deposited’ (if you can call it that – I’m still unsure how all of this is even legal since if you or I did the same thing with anything else it would be called fraud) in another bank. The second bank can then loan out 9 more fake debt dollars to other folks based on the one already fake dollar they got and on it goes sometimes through 10 levels before you just run out of bank. So, when the Federal Reserve (which is neither Federal, nor Reserve) lets the US Government borrow 100 million dollars it balloons in probably less than a month into more than 1 billion dollars in debt in the economy. Since every single dime of it is based on a loan, not a single one of those dollars has any fiat value left EXCEPT to the banks themselves, and the banks are the only ones sucking any real value out of the GDP the currency is supposed to represent.

Then, since there were only a small fraction of the actual dollar bills or coins or 20′s printed based on the 100 million, the actual end result is that the supply of fiat coin and notes circulating as a percentage of the fractional reserves has shrunk exponentially. So the number of 20 dollar bills you can get your hands on goes down in relationship to the amount of money the banks can demand in payment. But since there are hundreds of millions of more electronic bills floating around out there in fractional wisp money – the value of each of the ‘real’ dollars just decreased. That is how inflation happens.

You can see in WoW how this is completely impossible. Gold really has a set buying power since vendor prices are static, and so are the quest reward amounts. Everyone in WoW could spend all their time gathering gold and the prices at the AH would remain fairly static because the supply and demand chains are pretty static as well. You could do the same thing in real life if money was actually fiat and fractional reserve banking was done away with.

I can only loan Aemaeth/Zmack gold that I have on hand. I can’t loan him 10,000 gold if I only have 1,000. It’s when banks make up fake gold that inflation happens, NOT when people gather and save the real thing.

In the end – it is NOT an instantaneous process to consolidate wealth in WoW. It does take some time and effort. But since the gold actually represents real buying power at vendors and among players since there is no way to water down the currency with debt lending fractionals – the value of all goods and services will be based entirely on supply and demand no matter how much of the gold is floating around out there.

In other words, the CONTROL valve that protects the money supply in WoW has nothing to do with price controls, regulation, gathering any amount of it, taxes, or anything like that. There is even lending going on – I hold debts from several people (not that Aemae will ever make enough to pay me back), but that doesn’t hurt me either. The real control is the fact that NO ONE can leverage their way into a central bank because the vehicle does not exist. The control is that no one can ruin the gold supply by flooding it with 9 times more than they actually own.

It shouldn’t exist in RL either. Every US President that bucked the centralized banking system was assassinated. I apologize to a small degree for the uniquely American terminology used here, but it’s the same in every country. Just apply dollar to your currency (Sterling, Yuan, whatever) and Federal Reserve to whatever central bank holds control of the currency there and you’re in the same boat.

This long answer should probably be a post in and of itself, except for the fact that people don’t come to DYS to read rants about economic or money theory overall. But it’s fun to talk about. So to sum up: you’re being Dominated by centralized banks folks – we would all have to go PvP on them to get out from under it too. The point is that by seeing how GOOD a money system can work without fractional reserves, and the fact that it is being used to whack people between the eyes, you just might grow a set and vote for someone who will actually oppose the current economic banking system out there wherever you are – or run for office yourself and make yourself a royal pain in the backside. Be careful though, guys in power tend to want to stay there, and you just might put yourself in harms way for the reals if you buck too hard against the reigns. Be bold, but be shrewd.

]]> By: carrion http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15698 carrion Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:45:43 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15698 The point isn't how easy it is to make 5000g for person who knows how to get money from players. That has nothing to do with inflation. The point is how easy it is to "create" gold. Real life money is created from debt, and grows and shrinks exponentially based on what levels of debt are allowed in a given economy. WoW money is created from killing mobs, vendoring items, and questing (and nothing else). It is NOT easy to create money in WoW in large quantities. A typicial progression raid night costs well over a thousand gold, or even two thousand, in repairs for a guild, while a typical farming night might create a couple hundred gold in vendorable items and mob dropped money. Farming dailies might generate a hundred gold in an hour if you're fast. Leveling generates a few hundred gold per day at best. Compare all that to the gold sinks in the game and it's very possible that some days might not see a collective increase in the amount of gold on a server at all. The point isn’t how easy it is to make 5000g for person who knows how to get money from players. That has nothing to do with inflation. The point is how easy it is to “create” gold. Real life money is created from debt, and grows and shrinks exponentially based on what levels of debt are allowed in a given economy. WoW money is created from killing mobs, vendoring items, and questing (and nothing else).

It is NOT easy to create money in WoW in large quantities. A typicial progression raid night costs well over a thousand gold, or even two thousand, in repairs for a guild, while a typical farming night might create a couple hundred gold in vendorable items and mob dropped money. Farming dailies might generate a hundred gold in an hour if you’re fast. Leveling generates a few hundred gold per day at best. Compare all that to the gold sinks in the game and it’s very possible that some days might not see a collective increase in the amount of gold on a server at all.

]]> By: Laythe http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15655 Laythe Sun, 02 Aug 2009 18:35:22 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15655 You also have to take into account that Bliz only raises those prices, and adds those gold sinks, because the vast majority of the players have ,or have the opportunity to get, more gold than they 'need'. So, they add in things that can eat up that gold, or redistribute it amongst the 'goobers'. Just look at the new pricing on mounts for 3.2 to get the picture. Some of them have dropped, but the levels have dropped as well. Bliz is fully aware that a level 20 toon can now have well enough gold to buy a mount, the riding skill, and so forth. Pre-BC, that was unheard of. Only a rare few knew how to get that much gold together at that low of a level. They're changing the dynamic to suit the players not the other way around. Players don't have to make large adjustments to get the cash, they just need to be a little smarter about it. You also have to take into account that Bliz only raises those prices, and adds those gold sinks, because the vast majority of the players have ,or have the opportunity to get, more gold than they ‘need’. So, they add in things that can eat up that gold, or redistribute it amongst the ‘goobers’.

Just look at the new pricing on mounts for 3.2 to get the picture. Some of them have dropped, but the levels have dropped as well. Bliz is fully aware that a level 20 toon can now have well enough gold to buy a mount, the riding skill, and so forth. Pre-BC, that was unheard of. Only a rare few knew how to get that much gold together at that low of a level. They’re changing the dynamic to suit the players not the other way around. Players don’t have to make large adjustments to get the cash, they just need to be a little smarter about it.

]]> By: Jake http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15652 Jake Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:03:32 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15652 All i really got from that response, Zimini, is you think somehow your better than everyone else in the game. You are god, and make billions of gold in just minutes. Good job being the best at the game (since obviously no one else is as good as you, right?). Now why don't you go get some money in real life instead. All i really got from that response, Zimini, is you think somehow your better than everyone else in the game. You are god, and make billions of gold in just minutes. Good job being the best at the game (since obviously no one else is as good as you, right?). Now why don’t you go get some money in real life instead.

]]> By: Gerry http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15643 Gerry Sun, 02 Aug 2009 10:21:22 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15643 When a guild mate remarked that he was making oodles of gold through auctions that I started trying it. Now, I have specialists among my alts with all greens and gems going once place, leather and herbs to another, etc. When a guild mate remarked that he was making oodles of gold through auctions that I started trying it. Now, I have specialists among my alts with all greens and gems going once place, leather and herbs to another, etc.

]]> By: Ross Sandwell http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15639 Ross Sandwell Sun, 02 Aug 2009 08:03:54 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15639 Awesome article. I too get heckled by "goobers". In fact, much of WoW requires real life skills to be successful at an elite level. Awesome article. I too get heckled by “goobers”. In fact, much of WoW requires real life skills to be successful at an elite level.

]]> By: ktm http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15631 ktm Sat, 01 Aug 2009 23:59:05 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15631 yes i agree yes i agree

]]> By: Dan http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15622 Dan Sat, 01 Aug 2009 21:26:43 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15622 Gold sinks, besides maybe 300 riding, appeal to those who feel that they must have everything in order to be accepted by others. I do not personally own any type of bear mount, any type of mammoth mount, any Kirin Tor signet (in part because the ring's stats are rubbish). I have 50 pets on one character - I seriously doubt any of them cost me more than 25 gold. I have 50 mounts on one character - not spending more than 200 gold on any single one. Perhaps the style of gold sinks currently in the game, besides 300 riding, just doesn't appeal to me. I don't drive a new car - in fact, my car is almost as old as I am. I don't live in a new house - it's older than my father by a couple months. Where people would spend money on alcohol and cigarettes I spend on my hobby instead. I think that if gold sinks were something other than "look at me I know how to spend 16,000 gold and block mailboxes" or "look at me I know how to spend 17,000 gold and have an incredibly annoying sound emanating from my item" I might be more inclined to share my 100k+ cash reserves with a vendor for something other than repairs, enchants, reagents and other necessities. Gold sinks, besides maybe 300 riding, appeal to those who feel that they must have everything in order to be accepted by others. I do not personally own any type of bear mount, any type of mammoth mount, any Kirin Tor signet (in part because the ring’s stats are rubbish). I have 50 pets on one character – I seriously doubt any of them cost me more than 25 gold. I have 50 mounts on one character – not spending more than 200 gold on any single one.
Perhaps the style of gold sinks currently in the game, besides 300 riding, just doesn’t appeal to me. I don’t drive a new car – in fact, my car is almost as old as I am. I don’t live in a new house – it’s older than my father by a couple months. Where people would spend money on alcohol and cigarettes I spend on my hobby instead. I think that if gold sinks were something other than “look at me I know how to spend 16,000 gold and block mailboxes” or “look at me I know how to spend 17,000 gold and have an incredibly annoying sound emanating from my item” I might be more inclined to share my 100k+ cash reserves with a vendor for something other than repairs, enchants, reagents and other necessities.

]]> By: tim http://dominateyourserver.com/2009/08/01/gold-the-world-of-warcraft-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-15619 tim Sat, 01 Aug 2009 20:51:24 +0000 http://dominateyourserver.com/?p=1717#comment-15619 Envy and want drive the WoW economy. Very few items at auction are "needs" when you consider that aside from coin dropping from every mob (or items valued in coinage), there are quest and rep rewards aplenty to outfit your toon with. In fact most of the best stuff (I am talkin gear) in the game can't be bought at auction. Everything else falls into two categories... convenience, like a mount that has vendors on it and 2 spots for your pals, and vanity, like pets etc. I never buy anything in those 2 categories unless I have at least double the cost in my pocket... my guildies constantly go like a rollercoaster from "yay, I am rich" to "I am broke." In fact I hear the "I am broke" at least once per Auction House visit, et tu? 'What What, In the Butt?' -butters Envy and want drive the WoW economy. Very few items at auction are “needs” when you consider that aside from coin dropping from every mob (or items valued in coinage), there are quest and rep rewards aplenty to outfit your toon with. In fact most of the best stuff (I am talkin gear) in the game can’t be bought at auction. Everything else falls into two categories… convenience, like a mount that has vendors on it and 2 spots for your pals, and vanity, like pets etc. I never buy anything in those 2 categories unless I have at least double the cost in my pocket… my guildies constantly go like a rollercoaster from “yay, I am rich” to “I am broke.” In fact I hear the “I am broke” at least once per Auction House visit, et tu?

‘What What, In the Butt?’ -butters

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