Death Knight Tanks
Posted on February 21st, 2009 by Raknathal under Death Knights, World of Warcraft, WotLKDual Wield or Dual Handers: The Great Debate
Right now a great debate is going on as to the weapon style of Tanking Frost Death Knights. Some claim that dual-wielding is the way to go because there is a talent for it in the frost tree, nerves of cold steel, and that the only tank weapons, aside from the Titansteel Destroyer, are one-handed weapons.
The other side claims that two-handed weapons are the way to go arguing that nerves of cold steel is for dps frost Death Knights, and that although most of the tanking weapons are one handed, the boss’ chance of parrying you is increased, and ultimately more stress on the healers.
Blizzard has posted that they did not intend for dual-wielding to be a tanking alternative, but they do not have problems with it existing, and are happy that people have taken it up as an option. So where does that leave us?
In all reality we’re not sure Blizzard really intended Death Knights to become main tanks at all. I mean, look at those tooltips. Both talents seem to be better suited for a DPS spec than tanking. But since we have to live with the fact that DK’s want to tank (and yes, some make very good tanks), we might as well talk about it.
Really good DK tanks who have also tanked as a warrior or paladin will tell you that being dependant on rune combos and cooldowns makes tanking as a DK a much more challenging proposition. However, when they blow all their cooldowns they are basically unkillable for 30 seconds. That’s a LONG time to be OP. Patch in Frenzy, Maexxna enraged, pop all your stuff and it’s pretty easy going on healers.
However, Healers will also tell you that healing a DK tank can be an out of body experience most of the time. DK’s take a LOT spikier damage than any other tanking class, so healing a DK is very scary (unless you’re a tree, and then you begin to feel like you could heal anyone through anything).
Both side’s arguments are broken down into one core issue: survivability. Let’s start with the dual-wielding point of view. Almost all tanking weapons are one-handed, thanks to previous classes only having the option of a shield. This has created the longstanding tradition of having one-handed maces, one-handed axes, and one-handed swords as choices for the average protection pally and warrior.
This weapon trend passes into the tanking Death Knight, but they will use two one-handed weapons instead of one. This extra weapon will make up for the stats that are lost with the shield, and give an extra rune, an extra swing, and more threat. These things taken into consideration make the dual-wielding tank a viable choice for Death Knight tanking.
The two-handed point of view argues otherwise. Due to the fact that you have two one-handed weapons, your chance of getting parried has more than doubled; and parries from bosses are really scary. When a boss parries, they attack you instantly, and it resets their swing timer.
This is especially problematic for bosses who hit extremely hard (think Prince Malchezzar, Phase 2). This, however, was answered by Blizzard and now the bosses that hit extremely hard are ones that cannot parry (Patchwerk).
The threat still persists, however, that a dual-wielding tank will be parried much more often, therefore they will sustain more damage from any other boss than a two-handed death knight.
In conclusion, both sides are right, and when you choose your style, you must consider both arguments. You may have more bonus stats and an extra rune while dual-wielding, but you will absolutely take more damage. Likewise, with a two-handed weapon you reduce the chance of being parried, but you are reducing the amount of avoidance you have in general.
We’ve seen good tanks with both styles tank heroics and raid bosses with no problem and do a damn good job at it, although the number of really good dual wielding DK’s is very low, but that probably has a lot to do with gear choices. We’ll discuss those choices in another article.
















first comment
i have tanked naxx with a DK, both dual-wielding, and wielding a two handed weapon, with the same group (same healers) and i didn’t notice my life being drained faster while dual wielding. rather, it went smoother with dual wield simply because i had good swords(can’t remember the name atm)
Personally I find that duel-wield tanking to be a generally bad idea for a couple of reasons, 1 you need about 25/26% hit rating to be hit capped, which means that you’re chance of hitting the boss and causing threat is dramatically reduced, unless you stack tons of hit rating, but if you do this then you’re not equipping tanking gear, and you won’t have defense gems / enchants, reducing your overall defense to below the crit cap and intensifying the incoming damage, making you basically a 1 shot kill to any raid boss. Obviously this will change a lot with il226 or higher gear, but not every DK has this yet.
With 2h spec, you can just stack as much defense as you like without worrying about hit rating, as you’ll get to at least 6% quite easily from base gear stats and will probably hit your melee / special cap with raid buffs and auras anyway, as a result you take far less damage, your icebound fortitude absorbs more damage than usual, as will your unbreakable armor and you generally become a joy to heal… I have > 585 defense in combat and the healers love me being the tank as they find healing really easily, and a lot of the time the MT healers can do raid heals and not worry about me dying during enrages. I actually plan to hit about 650, and i’m far from full epic yet with no il213 items in my equip.
This is not something that you’re going to find to be the same with a duel wield tank, although the prospect of duel wield dps’ing is something that I plan to check out once duel-specs are available.
Dual weild tanking does not work… at all. The threat per second output is laughable compared to that of a two hander. Rune strike doesn’t do enough threat and the stats gained from two weapons are small. You also need much more hit rating to be effective as dual wield which is stat allocation that could better be spent in mitigation or even threat per second. The only time I have seen dual wield work well for a DK was a frost/unholy hybrid aoe dps spec.
Also, there is no parry haste anymore, that was removed from npcs or will be in the upcoming patch.
tl;dr Dual wield does not work for tanking, the TPS is too little. Grab a two handed weapon with as much stamina strength hit rating or expertise as you can find. Death’s Bite or Inevitable Defeat are probably the two best options. Death’s Bite especially if you’re an orc like my DK is.
-BTDK Mal’Ganis US
Actually DW tanking does work, what most people forget is that style of a DW tank and a style for a two handed tank are totally different. One mistake i made when i first tried to tank as DW was that i didn’t understand how threat is generated by a DW Tank. Basically as two handed DK you don’t spam attacks, you basically use plague strike and such to refresh runes while, you mainly use oblit or scorge strike as your main source of damage. While as DW you do less per hit so you SPAM crap out of your attacks, 2x plague 2x icey 2x blood strike, as for rune strike yes you do rune strike for less but! also remember, your doing it more often. With my DW tanking spec, i had talents gave me extra runeic power to keep up with my rune strike consumption. What have to remember is… while your waiting 3-4 seconds to rune strike, i’m hitting with rune strike every 1.5 so consider it, in time you do 1, i’m doing 3 aggro wise i think DW will do fine in long run! what DW lacks is burst aggo which is its one downfall, but even then i don’t think thats an issue.
I’ve seen burst aggro by the tanks save many a group from wipes and I’d much rather have one that gets the boss off me as quickly as possible should I not be paying close enough attention to Omen.
I started tanking with like 2x weapons from heroic AN , after i got inevitable defeat i tried 2h tanking – i respecced like 20x to get the right spec for both styles , eventually i saw that 2h tanking gives a way better threat and with the dps going through the roof on like Patchwerk 25 i like to have a stable 6-7k threat though this is done as a blood spec 2h tank ( Yes blood is viable to tank with exelently even on sarth-3D) So even now i got 1x Last laugh and the wep from UP i still stick with my 2h tanking – keeping the weapons to see how it will go in the upcoming content patch Ulduar But a 72 expertise on weapon …. is GREAT once your above 25 expertise with a 2h you cannot be parried anymore so if you get some good expertise you will get your parry’s to 0 each fight so then you dont even mind if patchwerk CAN parry or not …. cuz it just wont happen and then with the high TPS you can stick above the dps majorly
grtz Morgantis of lightbringer EU
having semi healing gear and the rest dps epic all HC and 10 man naxx, I have had no problem healing my friends Dk tank. We have run nearly every instance and me as holy priest have not struggled a bit. He uses Blood as his tanking spec and as a result we all get some nice bonuses. He does higher damage so in some of the hcs with poor dps we’ve managed to pull ahead, also with the + health talents he can help save that noob sucidin who has decided that the helear has plenty of tiem to heal him when he crits 3x in a row… I only wiped in oculus with him and that was our first run with a suicidin. We never ran with one again lol.
I have a holy pally and I both love and hate the DK Tank. Some are quite skilled but we have plenty that are not. I hope all the DK tanks pay attention to the next article beacause they do need proper tanking gear, which is my biggest frustration with them. If they are properly geared for tanking they are not much different than any other tank to heal in my experience regardless of DW or 2H except for maybe bears with that huge health pool.
You should -not- be tanking dual wield. DK tanks who were dual wielding were doing so to get more defense, not other stats. The availability of the Stoneskin Gargoyle weapon runeforging makes dual wielding just to get more +def silly. In half blues, half naxx gear I have w/ 10 man buffs 30k health, 540+ defense, and 50%+ avoidance when my blood runes are down using a 2-hander. The threat of getting parry gibbed, by any boss, not just Patch, is too much. Let Gluth get enraged and if you get parry gibbed you’ll be in trouble. My healer has told me that I’m often easier to heal than a warrior tank we run with, so I don’t know where the “damage is spiky” comes from. If my bone shield and icebound fortitude are down, then maybe, but if I’m still getting nailed I’ll pop Lichborne to help mitigate incoming damage and Death Strike to help self-heal.
spikey damage comes from the sudden huger levels of damage that DKs can take, after their 30secs of ownage untouchablilty, they suddenly take a LOT of damage especially when you get the big lightening style moves that can blow 10-20k in like 1 sec, healing suddenly becomes a bitch
i currently play a DW tanking death knight and have 50%+ avoidance Unbuffed 30k hp unbuffed mainly epic gear defense capped with pointed to spare with my raid groups 10 man buffs i got up to 37k hp i tank as a frost/unholy aoe tanking spec i prefer to offtank and tank i feel tanking for a deathknight became too easy with the release of stoneskin gargoyle
Mortalcoil
80 DK
Saurfang
The Answer is STOP TANKING. Muhahahahahaha!!!
I have the answer…its called, stop DK tanking.
Hi guys. I tanked halls of stone last night 79 DK and a player in there told me I hadn’t the first notion about tanking a dk properly. He told me to read up on talent trees and what fundamental things I should have as a dktank. So… is there a place at DYS that offers me talent specs and other best requirements for effective tanking? I am currently pretty much all frost spec.
An early post by lawsy (i think) told me to just stack on the hit points and strength but I think this is for levelling not raiding or even dungeons. as it is I have 210 hit points at 79 which is great for health but poor for keeping agro.
so is parry, defense and haste the best to stack now or what?
Please steer me to the right kind of spec so I can tank well and be healed well, but most of all not get told I’m a loser cos I don’t know how to spec a tank (even though he was right… I am pretty much guessing at this point).
help help help
Yemaydespair of Gundrak OC
Tanking DK, not easy..
ah the rule book on DK tanking (sound of glass breaking as book is tossed out window)
Unholy spec DK, two hander.. Funny, I don’t have to much trouble tanking as a DK..
Down go’s the Death and Decay..Up goes the threat..
Most important.. party DPS need to PAY ATTENTION.. Make sure your party learns to “Count to 3, then focus on the DK’s target only please! Give the DK a chance to build up threat..They do not peak up as fast as other tank types from my own experience. Be patient oh party members and let the tank do his job. Now once the DK has established threat it is in my experience easier to maintain that threat then with any other tank class. And if things get dicy there allways “Say hello to my little friends!” (Army of the dead) Keep throwing corpse explosion then re-establish Threat and finish the fight.. USE gargoyle, Stay in Ice Presence for the armor buff. If your pure unholy as I am, you’ll keep your Unholy presence advantage even when in another presence.
USE your spell rotation! If you need to hurry up fight switch back to Unholy presence… You loose the armor bonus and the healer has to work harder, but your runes refresh noticably faster. Feed ‘em the pointy end often. IMPORTANT NOTE: NOTE YOUR TOOL TIPS.. Peak weapon damage is your god, not weapon DPS. Your runic attacks base damage off max weapon damage.. Do Not Be Afraid To USe A 2 handed mace or a pole arm.. weapons speed in not all that important, peak damage is. Pick the Weapon with the highest maximum damage. You will keep threat. If you DW, follow the same.. Peak Damage.
This is my experience. Your milage may differ.
DK’s are a unique experience. A great deal of how well a DK can fulfill any given role is perhapes more dependent on the player then perhapes any other class. I have a guild mate has the exact same gear and talent picks as I do, but he’s a lousy tank and a great DPS. I stink at being DPS (mostly because I forget to NOT use DD which seems to steal agro almost every time.
I’m starting to do Naxx runs now which are a great deal of fun. My healers say when I’m on its a joy as they can do party heals. When I’m not so on.. I die, they die, everybody dies. Well, your the one that wanted to be a hero… SUCK IT UP!
Peace!
Theotazs last blog post..For tonight… We fight…!
I have tanked the Trial of the Crusader 10 and 25 with my Death Knight, both with the dual wielding and 2H style. I have talked to many people about the “parry-gib” which is where the boss will hit you every time they parry you. Even if the boss does not hit that hard, they will also hit you faster, as their swing timer resets after a parry counter attack. Along with the statement a few columns up, if you are dual wielding, your hit requirement is much much higher than required for use with a 2h. So you will be strongly missing out on stats such as stamina and defense rating in order to catch up on the hit rating. Also, with dual wielding, you are going to need to have a higher expertise rating, due to faster swings and more hits in an allotted amount of time, you will need to prevent your chance of being parried or dodged. IMHO any tanking death knight should go with a 2h, threat gen is much much higher, and you do not have to deal with the parry gib.